Despite Impossible S5E2: Daniel Schaffa

Episode Transcript

Tansley Stearns

Today's guest is Daniel Schafa. Daniel is funny, easy to talk to, studious, and someone who is known for being observant of others. Daniel is also a professor of law at the University of Richmond School of Law, where he studies tax and. And law and economics. He is one of a handful of humans with 5 degrees from the University of Michigan.

Daniel Schaffa

Go blue.

Tansley Stearns

His tax research focuses on how the tax system can be designed to achieve socially desirable goals. This is Daniel's story.

People who know you best will describe you as…

Daniel Schaffa

This one was tough, so I had to ask my wife and, and she said, funny, easy to talk to, studious. And there was some other characteristic, something like attuned to or observant of people. Something like that. Yeah. Not what I would have come up with for myself. But I trust her judgment more than I do mine. On that question.

Tansley Stearns

What's something you always wish you could do for just a little longer?

Daniel Schaffa

It seems like. So I have three little kids. Every time I pick up a book or try to play a game of chess, like immediately one of them appears and just needs something. So those are the two things that came to mind.

Tansley Stearns

Describe a moment when you really felt the most like the leader you always dreamt you would be.

Daniel Schaffa

So I like the idea of sort of coming up with new ideas. So when I come up with, you know, this in research, for example, when I come up with something that's exciting and I sort of think I'm seeing things in a new way, I like that a lot. If I'm solving problems behind the scenes, that always feels like a good leadership moment or when I'm able to help people. So I have students who are interested in working in a particular area and I happen to know someone in that area and I can sort of get them connected. That always feels. Feels really good. Yeah.

Tansley Stearns

When was the last time you danced so hard your feet were sore?

Daniel Schaffa

So I officiated my brother in law's wedding and yeah, it was super fun. I was honored that they, they asked me. And I had done it before, but this was a much bigger deal. This was, I think over 100 people, a bigger venue. And so I was sort of nervous beforehand and then afterwards I just sort of got to let loose and dance. And so I'm pretty sure my feet hurt. I think I was also wearing pretty bad shoes, so that might have been part of the reason my feet were hurting.

Tansley Stearns

What's an important insight you come back to repeatedly across situations in both your work and personal life that guides your approach to change?

Daniel Schaffa

So I would say something that I try to remind myself of is to stay away from moral judgments, which can be really, really hard. When somebody does something that I don't like, I really try to tell myself to resist the urge to think that they're evil or bad and instead think that they might have different incentives or they might be scared. And it is such a help thing to do if you can sort of avoid those. Those judgments because one, you don't get stuck in these sort of loops of blame, and then, two, it's easier to find a solution. So if someone is upset about something or, you know, does something, and because they have different incentives, you could try to change their incentives. Or if they're scared, you can try to sort of. So it's. That's something that I keep on coming back to, just trying to stay away from moral judgments where I can.

Tansley Stearns

If you have a bad day, which one song or artist on your playlist lightens you up immediately?

Daniel Schaffa

This one was hard because it's just so high variance on a sort of warm day in the car. Hotel California by the Eagles at the Windows down. When I'm at the gym and a Dr. Dre or Britney Spears song comes up, like, for some reason, like those, like, early poppy beats that I heard in childhood, like. And then when I just want to be transported somewhere else. Swan Lake, you know. So it's just very high variance. But I guess that makes it easy, right? There's a lot of music that can do it for me.

Tansley Stearns

What's something you wish you knew about growth over time in the early days of your journey?

Daniel Schaffa

Yeah. So hard. Hard work is a habit. I think I had this idea when I was younger that there were people that were, you know, just got things and got things done and. Or they were naturally good at hardworking. And you realize that you can actually build that yourself. And you do it little by little and you get better at it, and that builds confidence and you sort of go from there. So, yeah, hard work is a habit. Start small and keep improving.

Tansley Stearns

What's one thing people wrongly assume about you?

Daniel Schaffa

So I have a JD and I have a PhD in economics. So people think I can give them legal or financial advice, and they. Legal advice? Absolutely not. Financial advice, you know, at some high level, you know, buy ETFs or something. I could. I could say something like that. But people think I know what stocks to pick or what to do in a certain legal situation, and I'm useless to them.

Tansley Stearns

What do you enjoy doing that you don't get to do often?

Daniel Schaffa

Riding on a boat. Yeah, Going on a boat. Even sort of slow, A hot day, breeze, cool drink. Yeah, that was what popped into mind for that question. That's just a really fun thing that I only get to do every couple years, but I think every time I do it, I really, really enjoy it.

Tansley Stearns

Who haven't you seen perform live in concert that you've been planning to see and haven't yet?

Daniel Schaffa

This one was tough. So Queen, I guess now with Adam Lambert, that would be fun. Taylor Swift, I feel like, would be fun. It would be. Have you done it?

Tansley Stearns

Yes. And I made my daughter pay for her ticket. I said I paid for mine, she paid for hers.

Daniel Schaffa

Yeah, I feel like that would be super. I mean, she just puts on such a performance. And then there's also like the local jazz ensemble. I don't know. There were like a lot of, like, things that popped in my. But yeah, I think Queen and Adam Lambert is probably top of the list.

Tansley Stearns

What's one thing that inspires hope in you?

Daniel Schaffa

When I see a child do something kind. So my middle daughter is just really good at sharing and when she just, you know, spontaneously shares and especially shares something that, you know is precious to her. And my older daughter, she has this, you know, whenever someone gets hurt, she has this like, caring, sympathetic sort of. And when I. When I see that, then I feel like there's. There's hope for the future.

Tansley Stearns

If you could share advice with students graduating from university, what might it be?

Daniel Schaffa

So I think I would tell them that life is for exploration and just. Just use it. Try things, learn about yourself, learn about the world. I think I used to treat life too much like an optimization problem. I mean, like, either in terms of like career path or fitness or whatever. And I'm not saying set all that stuff completely aside, but I wish I had treated life more like an adventure. I think that that would have. And I think I maybe I still too much as an optimization problem, but I think life really is an adventure. So take advantage of it and explore and learn.

Tansley Stearns

What's something that still makes you nervous even though you've done it many times?

Daniel Schaffa

Asking for help? Yeah, asking for help. I worry that people will either see me as incapable or I worry that people will think I'm not sort of respecting, you know, their. Their time that I'm sort of demanding or not demanding, asking things of them. And neither of those things are. Most of the time, neither of those things are true. Right. It's not, you know, asking for help. I don't think People sort of look down on that and I think many people are sort of very willing. But yeah. Asking for help. It, it, yeah. That still makes me nervous.

Tansley Stearns

Tell us about your impossible.

Daniel Schaffa

Okay. This one was a hard one. I did not know how to answer this question. I struggled with it. And, and I'll tell you the first. At first I was thinking something that I thought that I couldn't do, but then I did. That was my first impulse when I was thinking about how to answer the question. And I thought about it some more and I thought it came to a different answer, which is something that I sort of thought was possible but wasn't. And accepting that, and I don't know, I wish I could say I'm an avid listener of your podcast. But now you will be. Now I will be. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. But I was thinking, you know, like, for a while I thought I could sort of do all of these things, like my own home repairs and, you know, two hours of working out every day and lots of reading and watching every Michigan football game and nine hours of sleep and 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, go blue. And 30 minutes of one on one time with each kid and lots of time with friends and going out on. And I had this huge list of things and I. And when I, when I wasn't achieving them all, I felt bad. And so I think there's something about accepting the impossible that. And that's something I'm still working, but that felt really, really good. And so recognizing my limits and recognizing the limits of a 24 hour day. So, you know, now as opposed to sort of. I mean, I still have the list in the back of my mind, but instead I think about, you know, what do I want to be and what do I want to do right now? And that, you know, that can change in the future. But I think sort of recognizing that impossible. And maybe that's a completely different answer to your question than you were looking for, but that's sort of where I landed.

Tansley Stearns

Yeah. What do you look forward to most in the next 12 months?

Daniel Schaffa

So I'm going to go see Mamma Mia. With my wife and two oldest children. And the little one is a huge ABBA fan, the middle child. So I am super excited to take her. And they've never seen a live musical before, so I think they're going to be really excited. And we're going to have to plan because she just turned 4, so she's going to be really little. But it's a matinee. I think it's going to be Great. So I'm really excited about that. Also excited about fall in Richmond. It's beautiful here. In the fall, the weather starts to get a little bit crisper, and if I can manage to sleep in a couple times over the next 12 months, that would be good, too.

Tansley Stearns

Okay, so with your first answer, what. When you were thinking about the thing that you are dreaming about doing?

Daniel Schaffa

Yeah.

Tansley Stearns

If that stays unfinished, what do you worry about? Might not be addressed.

Daniel Schaffa

Okay, so this is weird because I gave you a sort of unusual answer to the first one. What? I think I worry about just burning out. Right. So if I keep on trying to do everything all the time and sort of being too hard on myself. Yeah. So, yeah, burnout. That's the thing.

Tansley Stearns

So who's someone else we should be talking to on the podcast?

Daniel Schaffa

So I would be really interested to hear from a woman named Beth Suter. S U I T O R I believe. And she is the head of school at the Richmond Montessori. And that my. Both of my. My wife just started working there and my two older kids just started school there. And she just seems like a fascinating person. Lots experience as an educator, administrator, consultant. And I think she would have some very interesting things to say.

Tansley Stearns

Love that. What's your next impossible, my friend?

Daniel Schaffa

So the next impossible. So I'll say it. It's going to be out. Out in the open. Now. I would like to write a novel. I think that would be a lot of fun. And I think I'll be even more specific. Maybe something in the Pride and Prejudice universe. I read the book as a kid, and then during the sort of peak pandemic, I rediscovered it and it was like my, like, comfort story because I could kind of escape. And then it's perfect because you want to keep reading it, but it's not so exciting that you can't fall asleep if it's sort of like your bedtime read. And so I just read it many times, and then I got the audiobook, and I've probably listened to it dozens of times. And so these characters are, like, embedded in my head. So I'd love to sort of. Yeah. So if I ever have enough time. Time to sit down and write, you know, I don't know, maybe something about Carolyn Bingley or something. I think that would be. That would be a lot of fun.

Tansley Stearns

The wicked version of Pride and Prejudice.

Daniel Schaffa

That is exactly right. That is exactly right. It's because, you know, this is going to be maybe a take that people don't like, but Elizabeth Bennet I think she's a great character. And again, I'm avoiding moral judgments, but sometimes she's a bit of a mean girl. She does have that sort of vibe. And the fact that she sort of takes all this, like, joy in people's follies, and so it wouldn't sort of make her the antagonist, but it would be sort of a richer narrative and why Carolyn is the way. Just like Wicked. Why she is the way that she is, and some sort of backstory with her and Darcy. It would be good.

Tansley Stearns

I didn't quite get it. What's the incentive that motivates me? Oh, boy… Incentive… I'm so intrinsically motivated. I don’t… I'm not really motivated by incentives. I mean, I'm a perfectionist. Is that an incentive? I don't know. You know. I do… I think… I create… And so, okay, here's one…

I look forward to chocolate cake once a year. So I don't have any dessert all year long. And I am very motivated to have one piece of chocolate cake that my mom makes every year. That's certainly an incentive.

Daniel talked about the idea that hard work is a habit, not something people are born with, and I believe that to be true. I certainly learned hard work from both of my parents. They worked very hard in their jobs. They worked very hard at home. They are just Midwestern people that share the value of working and doing right by the world. And. And that was what I grew up around. I don't even know how to do anything other than that. I get teased a lot about being a workaholic, and I don't think I have a switch where I could do something different, because that's what I was taught to do, and because I am very motivated to change the world. So that switch doesn't come off very much. And I do think habits are something you create. You know, I have created work habits my whole life, and those are things that you repeat and develop and hone over time. And I certainly learned some of those from mentors and a lot of them from my parents.

Acts of kindness by children. There's so many. My daughter, Mackenzie, is one of the kindest humans that I know. In fact, I worry about it because her heart is the opposite of the Grinches. It's two sizes too big. And as someone who has a heart that might resemble that, I worry about what will happen to her because human beings are not all that kind to people with hearts as big as hers. And there's so many stories, the most recent of which is I just turned 50, and she and my mother gave me a ring. It is a ring that I have had a long history of wishing for, and she's heard me wishing for it. And she, for four years, has been working with my mom to share this ring with me. And what was so kind about it is her empathy and her listening. And she heard her mama and she wanted to do something really kind for me, and she did. And she does that kind of thing all the time. And it does create great hope in me and great worry. Please be kind to my daughter's heart.