Despite Impossible S5E8: Michelle "MACE" Curran

Episode Transcript

Tansley Stearns

Michelle Curran is driven, independent, determined, introspective, the keyNote speaker at 2027's heard here in Detroit on February 19th, and someone who is known for being a bit competitive. Michelle built an impressive career as a fighter pilot over 13 years in the United States Air Force. From 2019 to 2021, she flew as the only female pilot in the Air Force Thunderbirds and performed for millions across the country and internationally. The University of St. Thomas also named Michelle the Distinguished Alumna of the year in 2021. This is Michelle's story.

People who know you best will describe you as…

Michelle Curran

driven, independent, adventurous, probably a little stubborn and annoyingly competitive.

Tansley Stearns

What's something you always wish you could do for just a little longer?

Michelle Curran

I have two different ones, and they're very opposite from each other. One is just sit on a cold, cozy winter morning with a fuzzy blanket and the coffee and my dog and the fire going on a random Tuesday and not have to go do anything else. I think the other one is I love outdoor activities and some of the serene moments you find yourself in if you, you know, climb mountains or go hiking or go camping and you wake up to a sunrise or a sunset over a lake, like, there's these little moments of perfect lighting and quiet and serenity, and they're always fleeting, and I wish they could last longer.

Tansley Stearns

Describe a moment when you really felt the most like the leader you always dreamt you'd be.

Michelle Curran

This did not happen during my Air Force career. I wish I could say it did. I think the Air Force does a good job of constantly pushing you where as soon as you might start to get a little bit comfortable, you're moved into a new position and you feel like you're learning and you're a beginner again.

So, you know, throughout, the Thunderbirds constantly felt like I was learning. As soon as I didn't, I was moved into a new role. But once I left and I started speaking and writing, there's been these moments on stage after a keynote where I open the floor to a live Q and A and someone will ask a question where I know I have genuinely valuable insights to give them. And I can see it resonate. And I can see that they know what they're going to go do differently because of it. And in those moments, I feel like I can deliver so much value to that one single person. And so it's not like this broad leadership title or this feeling of having arrived. It's that connection to deliver what that single person needs in that right moment

Tansley Stearns

When was the last time you danced so hard your feet were sore?

Michelle Curran

So I'm not a huge dance, actually. Maybe I should get back into this. I'm more likely to have my feet be sore from going for a hike. But I did live in Fort Worth for three years. And there's Billy Bob's, which is this like dance, you know, western bar venue and then the Stockyards. And I attempted to learn to two step, which sounds simple because it only has two steps, but I am so shockingly bad at it. Apparently not very coordinated when it comes to that. So we'll, we'll say that

Tansley Stearns

What's an important insight you come back to repeatedly across situations both in your work and personal life that guides your approach to change?

Michelle Curran

I think that you can be both excited and terrified about change and opportunity at the same time. And those things can sit beside each other and one doesn't necessarily cancel out the other. And that that feeling of discomfort and uncertainty because of the unknown is kind of just expected when things are changing. And so just accepting it as part of the process and often it's moving you into a situation that's going to teach you a lot, where you're going to grow a lot. And not thinking of it as this sign that you're doing the wrong thing has been really helpful. Because what I say again and again is that it's the action that comes first and then the confidence and the feeling of readiness follows afterwards. And if you reverse those and you wait for the feeling first, you're just never going to get anything done. And so just accepting that both of those things can be true.

Tansley Stearns

One thing you mentioned there that I just want to double click on for a minute is this idea of holding two things at once. I feel like we live in a time where are so often there's this idea that there's one answer or the other. And I think that holding two things is really hard for our brains. And I think if we could get more used to it, we might find more compromise. How do you think about that?

Michelle Curran

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest shortcomings in society right now. I think a lot of individual people know it to be true and they do it well. But the narrative that's created that divides the country at the moment is a lot of black and white thinking. And it's. You're. You're either this or you're this. And if you're not this, then you must be on the other side. And it's so much more nuanced than that, and when you sit down with, with one person that might disagree with you, but you actually have a nuanced conversation, you realize that almost every situation, there's multiple things that are true at once, sometimes that feel like they're contradictory. So it's, I think a lot of it comes from the short form media that we consume on social media. Right. You have 30 seconds, you have 60 seconds to say something that's going to get people to stop scrolling. And having a nuanced conversation on a podcast setting or, you know, 30 minutes, 60 minutes, where you change your mind and you're open to discussion is just not as attractive to people, unfortunately.

Tansley Stearns

Yeah. If you have a bad day, which one song or artist on your playlist lightens you up immediately?

Michelle Curran

I like to put on like some power ballad, like some female power ballad to sing in my car. The problem is I'm an absolutely horrendous singer. Like I won't even do karaoke, but it's so bad. So I pick someone, you know, easy to sing along with, like Alicia Keys or Adele. I'm kidding. They're. They're spectacular and I'm awful. But if you turn it up loud enough, you can't tell

Tansley Stearns

What's something you wish you knew about. Growth over time. In the early days of your journey,

Michelle Curran

I think I thought that it would just continuously be linear, that I would just keep arriving and, you know, I would hit the next milestone again and again. And as a kid and then going into high school and college, I got a scholarship, I got my, my pilot training spot from Air Force rotc, and then I got a fighter jet out of pilot training. All of these things were so competitive and I was kind of of the mentality that whatever I set as my goal, I can work hard enough to make it possible. And then as I got further into my career, I realized how naive that actually was and that there was going to be things that I would need to learn and overcome the, that were going to take a lot of failures to get there. And the first time that started to happen, it was just an identity crisis for me because in my mind I was this high achiever who always learned fast, who always figured it out. And if I suddenly was just, you know, struggling with something or I was average at something, like who. Who was I? And so I went through that in my early 20s and it really rocked my world. And then as I, you know, learned from that and progressed and just, just grew and got some wisdom, I realized that it's, it's generally like the Stock market. Right. Like, if you zoom in, it's like high and low and high and low and oh my gosh, 2008. And then. But if you zoom out over your lifetime, hopefully it has an upward trajectory. So I try to think about that with my business. I try to think about that personal growth in general, that perfection is not the standard. It's okay to have setbacks and to keep going.

Tansley Stearns

Yeah. What's one thing people wrongly assume about you?

Michelle Curran

That I'm some superhero that doesn't experience fear and is super courageous and doesn't doubt herself. And I think that's one of the things that's driven me to speak about what I do now, because people saw the Thunderbirds and would constantly come up to me after an air show and be like, oh my gosh, you're. You're so brave. I could never do that. That's just incredible. Like how like, you must not feel fear. And for me, that was. I was kind of surprising even. I know they were trying to give me a compliment, but I am an overthinker. I dealt with a lot of self doubt, a lot of imposter syndrome, a lot of worrying about what others thought of me. And so I. I kept moving forward despite that. So I think that's the only part that they saw. But I'm a very normal person with all of the normal person insecurities, and I've just learned to keep going despite it. But yeah, I always like to give people a peek behind the curtain because I think it normalizes it for them and empowers them.

Tansley Stearns

What do you enjoy doing that you don't get to do often?

Michelle Curran

I think going back to the outdoor stuff, I had a period, it was before the Thunderbirds, so almost a decade ago. Wow, Time is going fast. Where I was really into outdoor hobbies and sports, I was doing mountaineering and climbing and learning all these things very quickly. And then life just got super busy and I started to have some injuries as well from the wear and tear on my body, from flying high performance jets for so long and being almost 40 years old and all the things. And so I really would like to get back to like, making time for spending a full day, going out and being outside, pushing my body, accomplishing something. That was when I felt, I think, most at peace. And it was like this unique combination of athletic endeavor where you do feel like you're achieving something, but also just in this incredible calming environment. So I need to make more time for that.

Tansley Stearns

Who haven't you see perform live in concert that you've been planning to and haven't yet.

Michelle Curran

So I, in the last couple years have seen the Foo Fighters, ACDC. And I just saw them in Vegas. And Taylor Swift. I have a wide, eclectic taste of music.

Tansley Stearns

Wow.

Michelle Curran

And all of those are incredible arena shows. Obviously tons of people there. They were great. But it made me realize that I. My favorite is when you just happen to go to a bar or a restaurant and there's some guy with a guitar and he's just exceptional. I would much rather go to that environment at this point than like a super loud concert where I need to stand for three hours.

This is again, a nod to me, getting old. But sometimes those acoustic single person acts are so incredibly talented. And you're right there. And I just enjoy that so much more. So it's not like a big headliner that I could think of a name. It's more of an experience.

Tansley Stearns

What's one thing that inspires hope in you?

Michelle Curran

In what I get to do now. I get to see people have these aha moments and these moments of inspiration and then oftentimes go pursue them. And a lot of the people that are in my speeches or I talk to afterwards will follow up with me months later and tell me what they did because of it. And. And seeing the individual person find the courage to go pursue what they're actually capable of when maybe they felt stuck for a while is just so inspiring for me. And I think you can get caught up in, you know, chaos and bad news and change and all the things that are out of your control, but when you, like, bring it back into the individual person, whether that's what's in your control and making your own decisions or how you can interact with a single person, or most of the time it's. It's pretty hopeful.

Tansley Stearns

If you could share advice with students graduating from university, what might it be?

Michelle Curran

I, thinking back to my time then, you know, being this perfectionist and thinking that I was, you know, had it all figured out, knew exactly what my plan was. I think it's to not get too hung up on what your tenure or your 20 year plan should look like. Most people are going to pivot many times and that that is not necessarily a failure and that it's very normal to have a goal that seems so important to you at one time that you eventually outgrow and to move away from it and to decide to do something else. And that might be shocking to other people. And for me personally, leaving the Air Force shocked a lot of people. I left Seven years before retirement. So seven years shy of having a full pension for the rest of my life. I was coming off of the Thunderbirds, this very fun, exciting visible assignment, and people are like, what are you doing? Why, why are you pivoting? But I had changed and grown as a person so much during the 13 years that I was on active duty and my goals had changed and the way I wanted to impact the world and interact with it had changed. And I think just being okay with that and being curious and open to that and looking for those moments of inspiration where you might decide to pivot, just not putting blinders on and being like, singly focused on what your goal is at the moment.

Tansley Stearns

What's something that still makes you nervous even though you've done it many times?

Michelle Curran

Oh, public speaking. So I've probably given 150 keynotes and I think I'm like Pavlov dog at this point. I have this opening hype video that plays before I take the stage and I can feel very calm. And then when my intro starts being read and that plays, I just feel the physiological stress and I'm like, oh, my mouth is a little dry. Oh, my heart rate is increasing. I feel the adrenaline spike. But I try to just remind myself that that's because I really care about doing well. If I didn't care about it and I could just go up there and wing my way through it regardless of the outcome, then I wouldn't have that response. But I think. And the same with flying. Flying a demonstration in the Thunderbirds was high stress and even far into it, I would get a little bit nervous beforehand. Again, it's because it demands a lot of you. You care about the outcome and it's worth doing. So I just try to frame it in that way rather than being like, oh, I shouldn't do this because it, it feels, you know, feel very nervous right beforehand.

Tansley Stearns

Tell us about your impossible.

Michelle Curran

So I don't have a single massive goal right now that feels impossible. I think for me it's shifted from like the, the achievement that I'm running to more to am I making the right decision and what I'm actually pursuing. Right. So it's more about like the purpose and the work life balance and how I'm sending my time than it is about this ultimate big win at the end and that's been a big mentality shift for me just in the last couple of years.

I'm trying to be better about not being like this is. I want to have this revenue for my business. I want to do this number of keynotes I want, you know, and just setting these really hard goals and more, being like, am I enjoying my life? Am I making meaning, meaningful connections? Do I have good friendships? That's the stuff that, that you're going to remember in 20 years. It's not going to be like, you hit X number of dollars this year. So I know that question. You're probably looking for something more specific. It's hard for me to answer that because I don't feel like I have this big thing that I'm going to run relentlessly towards anymore.

Tansley Stearns

What do you look forward to most in the next 12 months?

Michelle Curran

I think it really is figuring out, figuring out that balance. I just moved, so I'm no longer living in Las Vegas. I'm now living in Bend, Oregon. And it's a smaller. I mean, it's not a small town, but it's smaller than Vegas for sure. Very community focused, very outdoors focused. There's amazing stuff happening here every day of the week, and it brings in really incredible people. And having just moved a month ago, I am looking forward to finding my community here because you really lose that when you leave the military. I think every veteran will tell you the hardest part is that you have this community of people that have gone through shared trials and tribulations together, which just automatically bonds you. You have this common language, a common sense of humor, and you're just instantly close with them.

And I'm still friends with a lot of those people, but now we're spread out all across the country. They're not. I'm not seeing them at work every day. And so replacing those types of friendships that are really genuine and you get to spend a lot of time with people and there's proximity where the person lives, you know, just down the street from you or in your town is hard when you get older.

And so it's one of my big goals moving here. Let's put myself out there, go to the classes, go try new sports, do all the things to just meet people.

Tansley Stearns

Who's someone else you think we should be talking with on the podcast.

Michelle Curran

So my friend Rachel, she is also a keynote speaker. Rachel Druckenmiller, she is also a singer and she uses music in, like, how she communicates her message. And she speaks on resilience and connection. And she's just a really great person, super genuine. But she also has an incredible story of resilience in her own life. And I just think that the questions you Ask would align with her so well because of the music thread as well as the, you know, impossible thread, because I think she really faced something that felt impossible a few years ago. And so I won't, I won't steal her story, but she would be an incredible guest.

Tansley Stearns

Well, outside of moving and meeting some amazing new humans, what's your next impossible, my friend?

Michelle Curran

I think it really is just not about doing bigger things that come with more accolades, but just about doing the right things and figuring out how to balance relationships with work with, with contentment and, and peace and less stress. I feel like I've had a stressful career, so I still want to be connecting with people. I still want to be successfully running my business and growing that. But for me, I get asked a lot with my business being speaking and writing. They're like, people like, what's your 10 year plan? Are you going to be doing keynotes from now? Are you going to write another book? And I will tell them that I honestly don't know what my 10 year plan is and I like it that way at the moment because doing what I'm doing and working, you know, my own business, it gives me the flexibility to be curious and keep my eyes open for opportunities that really excite me.

And so I don't know what those are yet, but when I see them, I'll know them. And I'm just excited to go after those things where I feel that spark of inspiration myself and still get to impact other people.

Tansley Stearns

We talked a little bit about holding two things at once. And I try to talk a lot about holding two things at once with our team here at orsa. I think about it for myself. It's hard for our brains. We as humans really like an answer and we like something that's very clear and, and the world is often not that clear. And I think the opportunity for us as a country, for our communities, for our future, to have the heat turned down on cognitive dissonance as well as the real, I think disruptive forces of extremism is to come together more. And I think the way that that begins is to be able to hold to things at once. It's really, really hard.

Michelle talked about the idea that our trajectory is often non linear and I think that's true. I also think it's really hard to hold. I do believe that when you hear someone who's been wildly successful say that, it can feel like, well, sure, sure, sure. And you landed in a place of wondrousness. Right. I look at someone like Michelle and think, my goodness, I mean, maybe. And I think it's also a bit humble for her to say that she hasn't been wildly successful. And I think that, again, as with things that we hold that are different, it's also true that frequently our paths are jagged. And I think even in these moments as humans, where one part of our life feels really like it is going in a very positive direction, there can be other parts of life that are bumpier. So I think as humans, the entire experience is one that is often just a lot bumpier than what it would look like on a perfect Instagram feed or in a movie somewhere. And I also think that it's really difficult because when you look back on something, you can romanticize it. You know, those bumpy parts of life are not just bumpy, they're miserable. And so, you know, I look back and I can talk about those times, and I could articulate right now, gosh, this was a season where I felt really lousy. Well, I talk about it now. And in my role, that is a very privileged thing to be able to talk about. So I think it's a complicated topic. And I agree with Michelle completely that ultimately our journey isn't that linear. And when you're going through it and you're in the thick of it, it's hard to see that the fact that it's nonlinear doesn't mean that it isn't going to bump back up again. Michelle talked about the fact that even when she has, in her case, been called fearless, there's still these moments of real trepidation and concern. And, you know, in these big moments that I do believe what Michelle articulated, which is, you still get nervous. And, you know, what she talked about is something that I experience in a abundant way, which is I am an overthinker to the nth degree. I gave a presentation to our whole team yesterday, and there was one statistic that I bumbled over, and I've thought about it no less than 150 times since it happened and thought, well, I don't probably I'm now losing it and I'm no good at speaking anymore, and I should practice more. And, you know, this human condition of being really, really hard on oneself, blah, is a human condition.

And, you know, this question of whether or not you can be open about that is, I think, a really big question, because I think there are people in the world that are open to seeing that, and I think that there are people in the world that will watch this and see me get a little teary. And think, see, she is pretty weak, and I'm not really all that interested, and I did hear her bumble on that statistic, and she probably does suck at life now. And, you know, it's interesting because the thing I often say to Mackenzie that I have heard a lot from people who care deeply about me is what would you say to somebody that you cared about? Right. Would you say to them that they suck at life? And, of course, the answer for me is always no. And that's often how we feel. And so how vulnerable we decide to be, I think, is everybody's decision. I think I've clearly made a decision to be more vulnerable than I once would have. And, you know, it does come with some consequence and some question about what that means for your future. So a long way to say I relate very, very deeply to being pretty tough on myself, and I hope that all of us can find a little bit more peace and what those of us who are high achievers sometimes have.