An Interview with the Team at The Michigan Coalition to End Domestic and Sexual Violence (MCEDSV): Part 1 of 3

Laura Killingbeck:

It's been a beautiful journey, and something I’ve thought about every day is: it's just so much more difficult to be a survivor of domestic violence. To be in that situation, to be trying to get out.

Sometimes people see a long bike ride as this really hard thing–but it's so much harder to be in a violent home situation.

Chéree Thomas:

Thank you. And I really appreciate hearing you say how much more difficult it is to be a survivor, versus any other thing.

It's one of the things that we often talk about. People always talk about, “How do you do this work all the time? How are you answering those calls? How are you listening to all these stories over and over again?”

And one of the things that we keep at the center of our thoughts is: If not us, then who? Because people are experiencing these harms on a daily basis, and what they're going through is way more difficult for them, than it is for us to hear the difficulties of their story.

So we find it an honor to be able to hold that space, to hear their stories, and to work tirelessly, to make sure that sometime in the future, we don't have to continuously have new stories to talk about, to hear about, and to share.

Laura Killingbeck:

Yeah, I think that perspective is so important. I have asked the same questions. And there’s also an extraordinary sense of healing for people to have agency over these issues. But it's certainly hard work.

Merkeb Yohannes:

It is. And I think, for me, throughout my career…a lot of people come to this work because of their own lived experience.

It certainly is not a requirement, right? You don't have to have lived experience of violence to be an advocate that supports folks.

But we find that many folks come. One of the things that I've heard over and over again, what many survivors say, is, “I just don't want this to happen to somebody else.” That is a statement that I have heard in many, many settings. And it's a true feeling, right? I think a lot of survivors hold that feeling and that sentiment. And so, we find that some survivors are drawn to this work for that reason.

And some are doing other work that’s not even related to advocacy, but in their space they recognize that survivors exist. And so, what can they do? Whether it be sharing their story, whether it be a bike ride–like you're doing–whether it be working in the hotline, whether it be one of our many, many programs throughout Michigan.

So we also want to acknowledge that survivors are doing the work, right? It's not just other folks doing work. This field is really being driven by survivors and the voice of survivors to say, “Hey, this is what we need. This is what concerns us.” Also, “This is what's going well.” Right?

Chéree Thomas:

Oh, that's good. And also maybe...I mean, it [MCEDSV] came to be, because survivors decided we need to take care of each other. And so they started opening up their doors to one another. And then after that, it’s like, “We need money for this!” (group laughter)

Peter Namukowa:

Yeah, who's giving us money? Exactly. And I'll just say, in addition to what she's saying: there's also the belief that change is possible.

Because sometimes people become hopeless. But maybe it is one person who listens to another, who’s going through the same experience. And then through that, the belief and hope that things can change is brought into existence. Even when we hear all these stories.

And like she said, we want to live in a world where we don't have to hear all these things happening. But sometimes people think that is too big to dream. But there's no truth that is too big, you know?

So it is one step at a time. But we've seen changes come up–because if you think about where we are today, compared to where we were 10, 15 years ago–survivors now have more voices, and more stories told.

It was normalized back in the past. I personally grew up in a community where domestic violence was a normal thing, you know? And the misconceptions surrounding it just made it more prevalent. But today, things are changing.

Seeing that happening just keeps the hope alive. Change is possible. Can we get to a point where we don't see this happening anymore? I have a belief that it can happen. And it takes everybody's efforts.

Bailey Harrington:

It's a mission worth chasing.

Laura Killingbeck:

I appreciate that. It’s been interesting for me, because I’m a survivor of many things, but on this bike ride that’s not really the story I’m telling, for lots of different reasons. But as soon as I stepped into the advocacy space, people immediately asked, “Well, what happened to you?” And it’s like…wait a minute, why can't I just care about domestic violence!? Why does something have to have happened!?

I've been kind of conflicted about it. Because like you said, this is driven by survivors. But hopefully the next step is that there will be people who are not survivors, who also care and advocate.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Yeah, that is a hard spot, right? Because our society likes the big, flashy, splashy headlines. It almost seems like people expect survivors to tell all the details, to re-traumatize themselves. Like their story is not their own to share as they want to.

That is an unfortunate thing that we see over and over again. Like the worthiness of a survivor to get support–be it financial, be it any other support–really depends on, “Ooh, how flashy can your story be? How traumatic is your story?”

And that is not the way at the coalition that we believe, right? We honor survivors. Those who want to share their stories, should. And many have. And when they do, then we honor them by supporting them and not expecting it of them as a requirement for believing them, or for supporting them. Honoring that that is their lived experience, and it's a gift that they're giving us and the world.

That is something that we can really talk about: why does the value of a survivor's experience really depend on how traumatic they can–or if they can–share the story? Or if it catches a national headline, or the local newspaper?

Chéree Thomas:

And also, their story or their experience is not the definer of who they are as a person. Because that's one of the things that I find oftentimes troubling. That if a person does decide, ”I'm going to share this with this person,” all of a sudden, that's now their identity.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Their entire identity 100%, yes.

Chéree Thomas:

Yes. Entire identity. And now every movement we make, every conversation is now centered around that singular experience, instead of your whole best life that you have–instead of recognizing that this is an experience amongst other experiences that you've had. This is just an experience that right now is an issue that we're all talking about, but it is not the entirety of your life. You experience and live life outside of that singular experience. And I think people have a hard time really recognizing and grappling with that fact.

And I think part of that has to do with the sensationalism that you were talking about, right? I was working with a client the other day and she was like, “It’s not like in the movies….”

Merkeb Yohannes:

…yeah, it's not at all…

Chéree Thomas:

…It's not the movies, right? But we watch the news, we watch the movies, and these are really these snapshots in time. It's about the horrificness of that one particular thing.

But there's all of these other pieces, for many people that have led up to a point. Not all of them experience this particular type of trauma that we see. And so, then there's a lack of understanding of the vast ways in which people experience domestic violence in their life, right?

One of the things that we often talk about and we train our staff on is a recognition that not everyone experiences physical violence. Not everyone experiences sexual violence, but there's that ever-looming threat of both of those things occurring constantly, right? And that perpetrators use as much or as little force as they feel is necessary to maintain power control in a relationship.

And so, it looks so vastly different for each and every relationship. Which is why, for our staff, when we are answering hotline calls, every single call is a new call. Even if Merkeb calls 50 times, we're going to answer it each time as if it's a new call every single time. And Merkeb can tell as much or as little as Merkeb likes, share her name or not share her name if she doesn't want to. It's her experience. And we always start first just by believing, just holding that space.

Some of the most difficult spaces to hold are when people tell you, like, “I'm 72, and you're the first person to believe me.” I mean, think about a life that has been led for that long. And then you meet this total stranger, and for the first time in your life you feel heard, validated, and believed. And like you can exhale. And you didn't even have to go through all of the details that you went through with everyone else–that you had to share with the hospital, that you had to share with law enforcement, or with your landlord, or your family, or... whoever wanted all the details.

Peter Namukowa:

And also, when you were talking about when people come out to share their stories, how many stories are capturing the attention of the media? And those are the few lucky ones that people keep talking about. But there are many people who go through experiences that never come out in the light of the media.

Should they? Of course not. Because sometimes when they step up, they're not going to be believed. Even though they took the confidence to open up, they’re not believed. And so, creating that space where people feel like their feelings were validated, I think is one of the contributions that we are proud of.

Bailey Harrington:

Yeah. One of the calls I would take very often on the hotline is….they open up and say, “I don't know if this counts.” They’ve seen how they’ve been judged by other people. They see the representations in media and other spaces.

They need a space to process and receive validation. Being able to actually provide that to them is some of the more powerful work, I think, that we do here on the hotline.

Peter Namukowa:

And even sometimes they go through a situation that they don't even know was abuse. So we are also fortunate that we receive these trainings on the different ways through which abuse–the power and control tactics–are exerted in a situation.

And sometimes you talk to someone who will be like, “Oh, that has happened to me for a long time. I didn't even know it was abuse.” Maybe because it was just financial. Someone was just taking control over someone's finances, or they were using threats. Because the laws have taught us that for it to be abuse, it should be physical, you know? So sometimes if something happens and it's not physical, they'll be like, “Oh, I don't even know if this should be reported or not.” You can. So sometimes even information-sharing and educating ourselves about what abuse looks like, I think is also a contribution, one way or another. So that when we see it, we can name it and call it out.

Laura Killingbeck:

I have so many follow-up questions. (group laughter)

Chéree Thomas:

We have time carved out today for you, so as long as you want to spend with us, we're happy to spend time with you. If you can't tell, this is something that we're super passionate about.

Merkeb and I, we not only have the pleasure of serving together, but we're also friends. So, we get to talk about the different ways in which we've come to this work, right? And some histories that we have that are shared, some that are different. And then the way that communities have responded to experiences of domestic violence as we were coming through this field.

I've been working in this work for a long time. Don't say nothing, Merkeb. (laughter)

Merkeb Yohannes:

I wasn't. But you see, I peered over. I felt it. (group laughter)

Chéree Thomas:

Almost 30 years.

Laura Killingbeck:

Wow!

Merkeb Yohannes:

Don't ask anymore, Laura. (laughter)

Chéree Thomas:

I remember the first time I started to work, it was in a shelter-based program in Ohio. One of the most humbling experiences of my life, for sure. And it was interesting because I first went in with a whole lot of preconceived notions about domestic violence–just truthfully, the level of ignorance that I had around the issue is so astounding. If I could take back that first year of my advocacy, I surely would. Because I made a lot of mistakes, you know? And I still think about the unintentional harm that was caused because I just didn't know.

We know so much more now and can engage so differently now. During that time period, we didn't operate with an understanding of survivor autonomy. There was this belief that people needed to be rescued and fixed.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Fixed. Yeah.

Chéree Thomas:

Right now, all of our trainings that we offer start with the premise of ensuring that our services are trauma-informed. They're survivor-centered. Intersectional. That premise was not in existence 30 years ago. It wasn't a thing.

Without that foundation, there was so much work that was done with good intentions, but also created harms too. And when I first came into this work…it's not one of those fields where you say, “When I grew up, I want to work with people who experienced this.” It's not one of those things, right? There was never a point when I was like, “Ooh, I know what I want to do. I want to work with survivors.” That wasn't a thing. But when I did come across this field, I was like, “Oh, this is where I'm supposed to be.” And I haven't looked back.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Me, too. I tried to get out of it for a minute. I thought, “Oh, this is not what I'm supposed to do.” And it...

Chéree Thomas:

…it kept calling you back…

Merkeb Yohannes:

….it kept calling me back, and I said, “No.”And that's one of the great things about our fied–it’s that people come from so many backgrounds. Because survivors come from so many walks of life.

My education…I'm an economist in community development. And I enjoy the many roles that are needed in our support for survivors. It's not just this one singular role that people think about, like our advocates on the hotline, or advocates in the shelter. Yes: very important roles. But we also have people who are IT, and finance people, and HR people, and counselors, and lawyers, and social workers, and teachers, and artists, creative fields... from so many academic backgrounds, but also lived experience backgrounds.

So yeah, it's so interesting that people say, “How do you do this work? What do I need?” We get so many calls from students or people interested in doing the work who say, “What is the path? “And I always say, “Look, I can give you about 50 paths of 50 colleagues, and none of them look the same.”

It is at the core, in our advocacy: Do you understand what it is to believe? Do you believe survivors? Unwaving. Like, you can't waver on that. You believe survivors. There's no, “I believe survivors, but or only if. Then you don't belong in this field, truthfully. You belong somewhere else, maybe helping in some other way. But for us, to be an advocate, there's no question. There's no condition on believing. We believe, period.

Chéree Thomas:

It’s somebody else's job to investigate. That's what I would say is the beauty of our job–we don't have to investigate. We're not investigators. We get to really just hold the truth and that's it.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Now, our partners [law enforcement officers],the ones that came to welcome you–that might be their job, right? We also recognize that there's justice. The systems that are created are important.

But yeah, we don't investigate. We don't question–we believe. And at the core, it doesn't matter what your background is academically, or life experience. That is not something we can necessarily teach people. It is something you have to decide. It is an ethic or value that you have, in that yes, I'm grounded in this belief: believing survivors.

And then we can talk about the other things, right? Like, what is it to be trauma-informed? What does it mean to create environments where survivors can make decisions for themselves?

Chéree Thomas:

But that's the baseline.

Merkeb Yohannes:

The baseline is believing.

Chéree Thomas:

When we started the hotline here and we were doing the hiring process, I said, “I just need believers. If I get people who believe, I can train on the rest.”

Peter Namukowa:

Yeah. And also one of our tenets is intersectionality, and understanding that as an individual, you're interacting with many different systems, and how these are affected by one's identity. Understanding that people are coming from all different walks of life. And they have all these barriers that they experience when they are interacting with all these different systems.

It's what informs our work too. That’s why it doesn't matter which walk of life you're coming from, as long as you understand the believing, but also being trauma-informed. Then you don’t just look at someone because of the small thing about them being a victim–you're looking at them as a whole person.

Chéree Thomas:

Yeah. we try not to get hung up on the terminology, right? That's one of the things that we share with people. When we go to the justice system, go to court, they are going to use the word victim, right? You may not personally identify as a victim, but that is their language, right? And so just understanding the different language and all of these different areas. So people can be informed.

We work really hard to make sure people have as much information as they can, so they can make informed decisions for themselves. We are not the decision-makers for anyone. People get to make the decisions that they feel are best for them at this moment in time.

So even when we talk about safety and creating safety options for people, we talk about it as options. Because you can change your mind. Your situation can change. Circumstances can change. We do short term, long term, the mid-term…for at work, for at home, depending on what it looks like for that individual. We don’t have a pre-filled script. Because it doesn't work the same.

Bailey Harrington:

Really just empowering them to lead those conversations. Giving them the agency that we talked about in the beginning: over their story, their life, their journey.