An Interview with the Team at The Michigan Coalition to End Domestic and Sexual Violence (MCEDSV): Part 2 of 3

Laura Killingbeck:

It seems like domestic violence is a whole science. What’s a good entrance point for people to understand more about it? And how do you get people to open that door to understanding?

Chéree Thomas:

One of the things that I found to be effective is to talk about friendships and close relationships with family members. I do training with lots of people who have no experience in working with domestic violence, so we start out by having a conversation about relationships with our friends and our family.

How many of us have had a friendship where we felt like we were giving, giving, giving, and that person was giving nothing back? Or we have a really close family member, maybe even a sibling, who is yelling all the time, taking from us?

Do we stop loving them? Do we stop engaging with them? Or, in many cases, do we just hope that their behavior changes? Do we continue to engage with them–to seek out the person that we think exists when the times are good?

Most people can relate to that. Most of the time, people start sharing stories about their moms, their brothers, their best friends, and the intricacies of those relationships. And then I ask them, “How many of you are still in those relationships? How many of you are still currently engaging with that person you just described?” Ninety-five percent of them still are. Why?

And so they get a chance to now put themselves in the perspective of: this is a universal experience that people have.

And then we go into, “Okay, what part of this is: you get to decide, because you can walk away if you want to? This person has no control over you. They’re not paying any of your bills. They don't determine whether or not you eat, right? You don't feel physical violence from them. You feel safe in being able to say your piece.” Because that's the vast difference.

When intimate partner violence, domestic violence, exists, you don't feel safe. But if it's just a relationship where you just get on my nerves, and I don't have to talk to you today–you can walk away. And then you can come back, and you can decide if you want to continue in that relationship.

One of the things that I’ve found is that people like to distance themselves. They like to say, “That could never be me. These are all of the reasons why it can't be me.” But it always can be me.

It always can be, because someone else is choosing actions. Someone else is choosing to cause harm. And they never told us in the very beginning that they were going to cause harm to us. I've never, ever, in all the years I've been doing this work, met a single perpetrator who told their person, “You know what? I got you. Six months later, I'm gonna be wooping on you. Five months, I'm gonna ruin your credit. In three months, you're not gonna have any friends other than me.” They never do that.

They are whittling away all of your support systems and access to be able to have that freedom to just walk away along the way.

And so, once we can help people move away from blaming the person who's experiencing the harm, people recognize that the person who's causing the harm is 100% in control of their situation and their decision-making around whether or not they want to cause harm. That it’s a choice.

One of the things that people like to say is,”Hurt people, hurt people.” Sometimes. But I know many people who've experienced lots of harm and have never harmed another person. Ever. It's a choice. It's a whole choice.

And we don't like people to make those choices. And some of the people that are making those choices are people that we love, and that we care about, so we really don't want to believe that people that we love and care about are causing harm to someone that didn't deserve it. But who are they to decide who deserves harm, right? That's the whole choice to be a judge and juror in a relationship.

And so, helping people slow-walk in recognizing that this definitely is someone else's choice-making, and they [the perpetrator] are the only person that can stop the harm. The only person.

And I think that's a hard piece for people too, because when domestic violence exists, lethality increases when a person decides, “I'm going to try and get away.” And I'm being very mindful of language there because it is an attempt to get away. Because the perpetrator ultimately decides if you get to walk away. They decide if they're going to pursue you afterwards. They decide if they're going to do harm.

That's why we've been seeing the high number of murder-suicides. The filicides, which is the murder of children by the parent. We're seeing all of these things because someone tried to get away, but the perpetrator said, “No, you can't.”

We always have to make sure we're holding that person in their place of accountability, and providing support to the person who is experiencing the harm.

So when they feel like it is a safe option for them, that the option actually does exist for them to try and seek safety. And that's why we really start by believing and hold no judgment for the decisions that people feel they need to do, to keep safe. Because for some people, it's like, “I am not able to walk away…I am not going to walk away,” or whatever language that they use. And we don't judge them. We say “Okay, let's work on options for what it looks like to be in this home.” And we walk them through whatever it is that they want to walk through.

Merkeb Yohannes:

I think you asked an interesting question of how do we get people to enter that door, right? And I think something that maybe we miss the mark on, is: there's more than one door.

Because different communities are engaging with domestic violence in different ways. And domestic violence is impacting different communities at different rates. So, I think it is important for us to understand and humanize it, right? Remove the person you think cannot be a perpetrator, or the person who you think cannot be a victim, and let's just think about humans and how we interact with one another.

I think that sometimes communities…hearing the experiences from other credible, responsible, engaged people in their community is helpful. Because there's so many dynamics, right?

One of the things we talk about when we're working–particularly with communities who hold marginalized identities–is if the harm-doer also exists in that community and is from that community, and then that community as a whole experienced an “ist” or an “ism”...that is a nuanced, very layered conversation.

Trying to prevent violence is a big focus that we have, and that has to happen on a community…on a societal level. Individually going to one person and educating one person alone–it's not as impactful as changing these norms and beliefs that we have as societies or as communities.

And so, for me, yes: helping them understand the experience of an individual in a relationship. And also doing more work to understand: why does it exist to begin with? Why does violence exist in our world?

And that pushes people to talk about things like racism, and homophobia, and sexism, and all of these things. I also feel strongly that when we start to talk about, “How do we end racism,” we will understand how we end domestic violence. Right?

And so, the boldness, I think…we have to have enough bold people in places of influence, to say, “Where we need to also start this conversation is: how do we address the roots of power and control? And abuse and violence?”

Then we're gonna look at this–and “isms”--because that's what we have to address to really address domestic violence. We have to address racism. If we don't address racism, we're not addressing domestic violence. When we address racism, we're addressing everything. We're addressing all the “ists,” all the “isms,” all the violences that exist. And so on. It's really interesting. I would love to see a space where we create many doors for people to be able to enter the conversation. I mean, it's a big feat.

Chéree Thomas:

It is a big feat because you have a lot of people who don't believe that racism is real.

Merkeb Yohannes:

The same way that a lot of people don't think domestic violence is an issue.

Peter Namukowa:

And I think also one of the reasons…is because when we talk about domestic violence, it is always us against the other person. But then we forget the idea that it's like a boat: it's leaking, and I may be on the dry side, but there's nobody safe because at the end of the day, we are all going too.

So when do we know that it is violence? We always get to know about it when it's at the end. Someone has gotten hurt, someone has gotten hit. And then we forget that it is a pattern.

This thing begins like roses–someone love bombs you and gives you what your whole ideal world would look like. But at the back of their mind they are leading it towards something that you may not be able to see….and then you forget all these red flags that came along the way.

So for me, I think that also getting to understand the red flags that exist even before it gets to the point where you're able to name it as violence is very important.

Sometimes we mistake all those red flags to be good things. If someone is calling me to find out where I am, or someone is telling me what I should wear, or who I should talk to–that alone is something that would ring, you know? But the question is: has someone ever told me that? Did I even ever think that that would be a clue that someone is trying to be in control of what I'm trying to do?

So, we miss all those, and then we always want to see it at the end. But I think understanding it from the very start–like, what are the small things we can look at– is also another way through which you can bring people into the conversation.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Yeah, some of those flags are misogyny, sexism.

Chéree Thomas:

We’re also in a culture that celebrates those things. So you're asking somebody to look at something as a red flag that's also been deemed a green flag.

Peter Namukowa:

Yes, there you go.

Laura Killingbeck:

Do you think that having healthy relationships in this society requires something that's not seen as a “normal” kind of relationship?

Merkeb Yohannes:

…To some extent…

Chéree Thomas:

…yes, for sure…

Merkeb Yohannes:

…your healthy relationship actually looks like, “What the heck!?”

Oh, it is troubling to me. Now that I know this work…if someone I don't want to see, wants to apologize by following me to my workplace and putting flowers in my car…that, if you shared it in the hallmark channel, would be like, “Oh, so romantic. So sweet, so romantic.” But in the stalking world it’s like, “Wait…where was the consent? Clearly, this is not something I want. It’s scary…I'm scared.”

Chéree Thomas:

It's hard to have choices around finding pockets of safety when those things that are frightening to you appear to be sweet to everyone else.

I worked with someone–a really close friend–who was experiencing severe violence. But their partner had good standing in the community. [They were] perceived as being the sweetest.

This person [the survivor] had actually had a really horrific night, the night before they came to work. And then their partner had all of these flowers and things sent to the office. And so, everyone who isn't aware–which is everyone else–is like, “Oh, you're so lucky. You have the best partner.”

But also…there's hatred notes attached to these flowers! So, for everyone else, it's a big green flag. But for you, you experience this intense fear. And now, an inability to share with others what's really happening, because they've already painted a picture of something else.

So, a lot of the things are even more isolating. And then you have…where people have a desire to share…who do they share with? They're looking for an opportunity to find safety, but it seems to be elusive.

Peter Namukowa:

Especially if you live in a community where everybody knows everyone. Or you're talking about someone that everybody knows. Because like she said–most perpetrators have different identities. Very different…

Merkeb Yohannes:

…in private…

Peter Namukowa:

…private versus home.

Bailey Harrington:

They manufacture the perception to their communities, to everybody else. I think both media and the perpetrators themselves manufacture that image that they try to portray to the rest of the world. And that ends up coming back onto the survivor.

Chéree Thomas:

Even the language that is utilized when people are experiencing these things. If the person is in high standing–if it makes it to the media–you're given this wonderful resume of theirs before you hear anything about them…

Merkeb Yohannes:

….and then the survivor gets up, and we dug up this thing about when they were 18 years old and shoplifted. And the survivor is now 40…

Laura Killingbeck:

So it really kind of requires people to step out of norms–out of cultural and social norms.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Part of our work…we have some school-aged resources, because normalizing what healthy relationship looks like…we should get comfortable in starting that when folks are really, really young. So that they can grow up with these ideas, right?

And so, re-envisioning: what does a healthy relationship look like based on what we know about what unhealthy relationships, and abusive relationships look like?

It’s part of our work. It needs to be part of our work. Otherwise, like we said earlier, all the stories you're going to get is…increased lethality, and X number of survivors we serve in shelter, or X number of calls we get. We'd love that those calls are for something else. We would love to work ourselves out of a job. We would love to work ourselves out of a coalition, or focus on a coalition that strengthens communities so that we can maintain communities that are violence free.

I would love to…our mission changes, and why and how we support our community’s change. That's what I dream for. To live in a world where all of our resources are for survivors…or people, right, who haven't experienced violence. They wouldn't be survivors; they would just be people. Where we're strengthening communities and strengthening the generations that are coming up.

Chéree Thomas:

Yeah, just start truth telling, right? Because also–when we don't understand our history and how things came to be, and we start to forget those things–we repeat those things too. And they come back in really horrible ways.

A big part of our work, too, isn't just direct service. It's also advocacy work at the legislative level. Making sure that the survivor stories and the impacts stay at the very forefront of policies that are being implemented, and changes that are necessary to create these safer communities.

Laura Killingbeck:

That must be very challenging right now.

Chéree Thomas:

Merkeb doesn't like me to cuss, but... (group laughter)

I can't help it. Oh my gosh, yes. It is extremely challenging right now. Yet, we have to persevere.

This goes back to the very beginning of our conversation: having those conversations with them [legislators] is not more difficult than what survivors are experiencing. We have to put ourselves in those spaces–deal with that discomfort–to get to the other side. So we can do what it is that survivors have paid for and continue to pay for…so we can have the change that they deserve.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Yeah, but the cost now for survivors is...

Chéree Thomas:

…it's skyrocketing…

Merkeb Yohannes:

...Skyrocketing. Yeah, and for many reasons, right? We've normalized that not holding people accountable–people with power, who have harmed…harm-doers who continue to insert power and decision-making–we've normalized that it's not a big deal.

It is extremely challenging in an environment where it is those people [harm-doers] that are holding the resources…that belong to survivors. It is those people that are decision-makers about who gets support. It is those people who decide “What is the law?” And what laws are stripped away, what laws are added.

It gets very challenging. It's challenging even when there's collaboration and understanding. But truthfully: that is not the environment we're in now.

Laura Killingbeck:

It's a different moment in time.

Merkeb Yohannes:

Yeah. And history will look back for many, many, many, many reasons. And I don't know what they're going to say about us…200 years from now, they'll be like: look at these people.

Chéree Thomas:

I say, “Look at some of these people.” We're going to be on the right side of history.