An Interview with the Team at The Women’s Resource Center of Northern Michigan

After touring the Women's Resource Center and discussing the agency's programs and services, our conversation shifted to people’s perceptions of what domestic violence is and the realities survivors face beyond the crisis itself.

Gail Kloss:

…They [survivors] think maybe abuse is only physical, but there's so many other forms of domestic violence.

Megan King:

That's also a perpetrator tactic where it's like, “What I'm doing isn't technically a crime, so therefore it's not actually abusive and you can't call the cops and you can't get help.”

But we know that there are a lot of abusive and controlling behaviors that aren't criminal, right? Yelling at someone isn't a crime, but it can make them feel unsafe in their own home. Putting someone down isn’t a crime, but it can make them feel insecure in their relationship.

And I feel like that's something that survivors will do themselves–be like, “Oh, well, I don't deserve to call it that,” or “It doesn't count.”

And it's like: no. It all counts. It's all abuse. It's all having an impact on your brain and your body and your nervous system.

Claire Houser:

And financial control.

Megan King:

That's a really big reason why people aren't able to leave relationships: because of the financial control and access to resources.

Gail Kloss:

And from a perpetrator’s standpoint, if I'm controlling you and getting what I need just by threatening and intimidating, I don't have to go further and use physical violence.

Laura Killingbeck:

Yeah, it's such a slippery slope between the behaviors that are not a crime and the behaviors that are a crime. But even then, I feel like people still don't see domestic violence as a crime.

Megan King:

When did domestic abuse become a crime, officially? It’s later than you would think. I wish I had that date on the top of my head.*[See explanatory note at the end.] But it's way later than you would think that domestic abuse–hurting your domestic partner–was actually criminalized.

Gail Kloss:

And then it was even years later for sexual assault. You “couldn't” sexually assault somebody if you were married to them. And now it is a crime.

Megan King:

Yeah, I think people struggle with that, with identifying it for themselves or identifying it in other relationships.

Andrea Koch:

Denial is a coping mechanism as well. Not admitting to someone else, you know? You can stay somewhere when you don't have to admit it to yourself. So, that does keep a lot of people in abusive relationships.

Gail Kloss:

And we know it's one of the most underreported crimes: domestic violence and sexual assault. Sexual assault is probably more underreported than domestic violence.

Megan King:

Especially when you think about sexual coercion. That's been so normalized in media and pop culture and it's like, “No, that's actually also sexual assault if you are coercing them!” Even if they're not physically fighting you off, that's still sexual assault.

Claire Houser:

Well, I think at times, even prosecutors' offices struggle to identify where to draw those lines when victims approach with a scenario or experience that they had. But…there is still a line there. People need to figure out how to believe survivors.

Laura Killingbeck:

It seems like there's a juxtaposition between: “This is actually much worse than people think,” because of the level of actual violence, and also what you were talking about earlier, where there could also be an absence of criminal behavior. Domestic abuse can either go far beyond what people imagine, but it can also be something no one can see.

Gail Kloss:

Perpetrators are strategic. They know what to show and what to hide. The public facing person can be a very different person when they're in private spaces.

So, when people say, “Oh, I just cannot believe that they would do that,” well, that's because that's not a side that you ever saw from that person. The outward facing version is very different from what's going on within the relationship.

So it is really important to believe when somebody tells you what happened–to be able to say, “Hey, I'm so glad you told me this.” And then work through finding some support. Just being there for that person at that moment is the most important thing that you can do. Not to solve what’s going on, but to just believe and support that person where they're at, at that moment.

Megan King:

And I think there’s also the perpetrators’ tactic of: “I am this great, wonderful person in the community.” They're [the victim is] like, “Oh, I can't say anything. No one's going to believe me… They're out there doing all these good things….and they're so wonderful. No one would ever believe it.”

That's intentional too, to prevent survivors from even trying to leave.

Laura Killingbeck:

Do you think it's cognitive, or do you think it's an innate emotional understanding that they have?

Megan King:

Are you asking about the survivors or the perpetrators?

Laura Killingbeck:

The perpetrator. I'm just curious.

Megan King:

I think that a lot of times it is very strategic with perpetrators. I don't know if I'd go as far as cognitive, but yeah, you can see a lot of different strategic patterns across different experiences of abuse. We're all different human beings and abuse is going to look different in each case, but you can recognize those patterns. Especially when you've seen enough of them.

I think that is the other thing with the sensationalized idea of what domestic abuse is. That's also something that community members can struggle with, because the community really wants to help. I don't think there's anybody out there who's like, “I'm pro domestic violence.” But what they want is to see a situation that they can intervene in, and they can help in that moment.

And to tell them “Oh, it’s actually really hidden. You might not see it, and it could be happening without you knowing it,” can make people feel helpless.

So, what we try to do with our community education is really like, “Let's talk about the reality.” And the reality of what you can do to help, is building those supportive communities.

If you have communities with safety nets so that a person leaving an abusive relationship isn't going to be homeless with their kids and living in their car. If you've got safety nets where there's a place where your kids can go while you look for a job. When those are in place, it empowers survivors to be able to leave those situations a lot more safely.

So, I think it's just kind of translating that for community members. Like, “Nope, you're not going to intervene in the moment.” I mean–if you see something, please do. But you're probably not going to actually see most of what's happening.

Just building those supportive communities is the best intervention and prevention tactic that I can think of.

Laura Killingbeck:

That was so well put. Thank you.

Andrea Koch:

One of the things that our violence prevention work in the community has included, is the Community Connections series, which is a space for men that is really talking through some of the things that have become societal norms that are–when you look closer–not helpful to the women in the relationship. So, it's really very interesting being able to break that down. And some of the things, like “Well, that's just how he is.” Being able to just stop and look at that.

Megan King:

It's also helpful because I think there are a lot of men who really want to be supportive. They want to be allies.

There's our whole 100 Men Campaign–empowering them with the skills of: How can you “call in” your friend if they're making a sexist joke? Or, how are you holding the people in your circle accountable for a behavior that you don't support? It's when people are staying silent…that's a tacit endorsement, right? If I'm not going to say anything, then that means I'm okay with it.

So, really kind of reinforcing that you can do that in a kind and gentle way. You don't have to be like, “Hey, I don't want to be your friend because you made a not very classy joke.” You could be like, “Hey, that's not something that I hold in my values…maybe let's not do that.” And do it in a kind way, right?

Laura Killingbeck:

My understanding of domestic violence is that it's mostly male perpetrators and mostly female victims or female survivors. Does that carry forth in your experience?

Megan King:

Generally speaking, yeah. Domestic violence can happen to anybody. Obviously, women are as capable as men. But when you look at the actual reality of what we're seeing, it's typically more men who are perpetrators and typically women or gender diverse people who are victims or survivors.

Laura Killingbeck:

And so that's the reasoning for the 100 Men Campaign?

Megan King:

I think there's also the element of–there is still some work for us as a society–but we live in the reality that men oftentimes will listen to men in a way that they don't necessarily listen to women. Me coming and talking isn't always necessarily as impactful because I can't speak to the lived male experience, right?

And I think there are elements of being socialized as a man in our society, where we are relying on patriarchal power structures. And when you're socialized that way, you're seeing the world in a certain way.

So, coming from a man, you could be like, “Oh, well, you actually walked through the same experiences I had. So I can really relate to you and then take you seriously.”

Gail Kloss:

So, men getting involved….I think violence against women for years and years was seen as a women's issue. And there's been this shift in perspective recognizing that violence against women isn't a women's issue–violence against women is a men's issue. So, how can men get involved to help end violence against women?

I think that is really where that [perspective] change occurred. A lot of times you'll even get a question like, “Why didn't she leave?” But where's the question, “Why does he hit her,” or “Why is he abusing her?”

Having that shift from focusing on the survivor and looking at the perpetrator and asking the perpetrator those questions. And that is a societal thing...it's gonna take a long, long time to flip that lens.

Megan King:

There's actually been research about the impact of framing things that way in a news article. Like, if you’re framing the article on: “These are the actions that the survivor took,” then people will have criticisms for the survivor. But instead, if you shift it to framing that news article on: “These are the actions that the perpetrator took,” people will instinctively…be like, “Oh, okay. So I'm focusing on the perpetrators’ actions…”

Laura Killingbeck:

And I think it's so rare that you hear perpetrators' stories too. We have all of these stories about women fleeing, but there's almost like this blank spot of understanding why men continue to do those behaviors.

Megan King:

And there are programs in our community and other communities for men. They typically have to be court ordered because perpetrators are not typically going to volunteer to go to those programs. A lot of times people call them–it's old language–but batterers intervention programs. I don't like the word batterers, though. But it is a program that perpetrators–people who typically have a conviction–will be court ordered to go to. And they really talk about taking accountability for your actions and learning. And hopefully it changes some people's minds.

Claire Houser:

That is a really interesting point though, that the survivors are generally put in the place of vulnerability in sharing their experiences and their stories in the media and to whoever. But the perpetrator rarely is.

I mean, I'm even thinking about Sam's story; how much do people even know about the perpetrator?

Megan King:

She's talking about Samantha Stites, who had the Hulu documentary Stalking Samantha. She recently came and did a speaking engagement for us, which was really powerful.

I think even when survivors are telling their stories publicly, there's often that pressure to not name names. You don't want to drag someone's name through the mud. Well, they chose to do those actions! I think I am allowed to say who did that to me.

Claire Houser:

And I think there's pressure to be convincing. If I share my story, I have to do it in a way that they believe me, and they buy it, and they understand that this is how it really was for me.

That's terrible that they have to try to be convincing, sharing their trauma.

Gail Kloss:

And all of the backlash that they might hear…it comes back on the survivor. “Why would you want to ruin their [the perpetrators’] lives?”

Again: putting all that responsibility on the survivor.

Claire Houser:

And they get scrutinized. Why didn't you do XYZ? Why didn't you leave at that point? Why didn't you? Whatever. And it's just–it's hard when you haven't been in that position.

Gail Kloss:

Again, it is about changing that focus from the survivor.

“Why did you give her that roofie?” Nobody asks that. “Why did you give her that drink?”

It's always: “Why did you accept a drink from a stranger?”

Megan King:

And honestly, those societal attitudes come up too, even when I do classes for middle and high school students on supportive relationships and consent and bystander intervention.

We start off the program with “Here are some myths and facts. What do you think is true? What do you think is not true?” And the number of students who will have some of those underlying attitudes…I will say, I've been doing this for 10 years and it's gotten a lot better. We are seeing some improvement. But there are a lot of people who just have that underlying idea of like, “Well, you put yourself in that situation, didn't you expect to be hurt?” And it's like, “Okay, let's reframe.”

And so, it's really good that I have the opportunity to then work with those students to be like, “Hey, have you ever thought about it…this way?” So, I think that can be helpful too. And that's where I love the prevention education piece where you can address those things before they become issues.

Laura Killingbeck:

Oh, thank goodness you're doing that work. Thank goodness you are all doing this work. It's so important.

Gail Kloss:

We're glad we're here.

Megan King:

But we are all also trying to put ourselves out of a job if we can. That is my ultimate goal. That would be so wonderful, If I could just end gender-based violence, and pursue a different career, that would be amazing…