An Interview with JoJo Dries, Founder of On The Wings of Angels

Laura Killingbeck:

JoJo, hi! So, I know you have a TEDx talk, a book, and lots of interviews about your work with On The Wings Of Angels. Can you tell me more about what that work is about?

JoJo Dries:

On The Wings Of Angels exists to provide resources, community, and support immediately and tangibly to survivors of domestic violence. And the reason we say “immediately and tangibly” is there are many wonderful nonprofits out there–but eventually, when you get too big, it becomes a barrier sometimes for survivors to get help.

We modeled On The Wings Of Angels after my own story. When I escaped [from my abusive family] I literally had nothing but the clothes on my back. And the community jumped in. They gave me a bed, helped pay my first month's rent, and helped me pay my bills. So, this nonprofit is modeled after that story.

And you must be on the way out or actually exited from a situation–just like I was–in order to get help as well.

Laura Killingbeck:

That's incredible. I heard you talking about it in a different interview–about working with women who are determined to exit cycles of abuse. Why is it so hard? What keeps women in those relationships?

JoJo Dries:

Great question. I think one of the main things that keeps women in a domestic violence situation is–well, they've done studies on this–and it shows that your brain literally becomes rewired when you're in a violent situation. The things your abuser tells you, like, “You're worthless, you're never going to amount to anything. You can't survive without me. You'll never get a job. No one will ever believe you. I'll come kill you if you leave.” All of those things rewire your brain, and you begin to believe them.

It’s like the story about when they put a bee in a jar, right? And they put the top on the jar. The bee keeps trying to escape, and it keeps hitting the top of the jar. And then one day, they unscrew the top of the jar, but the bee never leaves. Because they trained it that there was a top on. And I think that's how our brain gets rewired when we're in an abusive situation.

I'm a survivor myself, and 15 years after leaving–today, 15 years later–I still have times when I hit the top of that jar, and I have to rewire my brain again to say, “No, you're okay, you're safe. You're going to make it. You know, you can do this. You're worthy of it.” So I would say that's the major reason people stay.

And the people that go back, I think there's also this hope against hope that they really, truly believe that the person is going to change, that their abuser is going to change. So there is definitely an element of, “Well, I can change them. They will change. Maybe this is different this time around.” But really, that's a simplistic answer too.

Also–the community is not there for them. That’s why we created On The Wings Of Angels. The reason I didn't go back isn't just because I was determined not to go back, but because I had a community that I built. A chosen family that I built around me to say “You got this, you don't have to go back to your [abusive] family. You don't have to go back to your abuser. We got you. We'll take care of you. We'll hold you until you get to the other side of this.” So I think it's really important that people listening know: we have the power, as a community, to prevent this cycle of abuse from continuing.

Laura Killingbeck:

Yeah. And it seems like such a big part of the structure of abusive relationships involves some form of physical or emotional isolation. And so what you're talking about with the community is such a crucial part of getting people out of that.

JoJo Dries:

You know, I was homeschooled, home church, home business. And the reason for that was this need for my abuser–my dad–to shelter us. Because the minute I got out and saw the world for what it wast–we started traveling for business, we started meeting people outside our little bubble–and the minute that I saw that there was this big world that existed outside the sheltered, abusive home I was in, that's when I started making my escape.

So isolation and brainwashing and sheltering is a form of control that the abusers do so that you have no education outside of anything that they're telling you. Because they know that the minute you get the exposure to the world at large, that's when you realize that you can escape, and that there are people that will help you when you leave.

Laura Killingbeck:

How many women have come through On The Wings Of Angels?

JoJo Dries:

Something that I really cherish is the number of women we've been able to help. We've only been in existence for three years. But because the community stepped up and said, “We're going to fund you. We're going to support you. We’re going to volunteer. We're going to give up our time, talent, and treasure,” we've been able to help several hundred women at this point. So we're at almost 300 women. And most of those have children. It's several hundred children that we've helped get to safety, get fed, clothes on their back, school supplies, backpacks, whatever it might be.

We help women who are going to court, and they need safe representative. We've sent security teams with them. So it's very individualized. It doesn't mean we've housed several hundred women. It's not just one thing that we do for them. So whatever their specific situation is, and their immediate need is, that's what we fill. We fill in that gap, and then we work with the other local nonprofits–probably several of whom you will be supporting through this ride. And we refer back and forth. So if I can't do something, they can, and vice versa. So it's really a network.

Laura Killingbeck:

That’s amazing!

JoJo Dries:

Yeah. Collaboration over competition, baby. That's the name of the game.

Laura Killingbeck:

In a previous interview, you gave an extraordinary example of a man who stole his partner's car and drove it–and himself–into a wall to prevent her from working. That's such a graphic example of financial abuse and economic control.

And that’s why I think it was so smart for orsa to name financial abuse and economic control as factors in abusive relationships. Because when you don’t have control of your finances, you can’t leave. Especially if you have kids. But I think financial abuse is one of those things that people don't realize until after they've left, right?

JoJo Dries:

Yes. So, my husband and I helped dozens of women in the years before we started On Wings Of Angels. But the reason it started was, there was this one week–I was a mortgage loan officer at the time–and I was helping three different women get into housing. All three women came to me that week because they wanted me to know that they were being abused in their homes.

One was a CPA, one was a top real estate agent in our community, and one was a top financial advisor in our community. All three of them, once we pulled their credit, had over 800 credit scores. They didn't know that, because they didn't think they could pull their credit scores. Mind you, these are business professionals. All three of them didn't think they could buy a house in the state of Michigan if they were already married without their husband being on the title. Because there are states in which, if you are married, before you get divorced, you actually can't put your name on the title without your spouse. And then the last thing, they didn't think that they had enough saved, or in their own name, to be able to put a down payment.

And so all three of them took me out individually to tell me their story, and I told my mentor that week. And she said to me, “JoJo, you need to start a nonprofit, because this is what you do. You help these types of women. Go start a nonprofit to help them even more, and get the community involved.”

My husband said the same thing. And so that's when On The Wings Of Angels was birthed–it was on my deck that night, after meeting with those three women. So this organization was birthed after seeing the financial abuse of three different women.

So I always ask my friends, my family, people that I network with, “Do you know your passwords to all of your bank accounts?” We're helping a survivor right now who got married three years ago. Her husband “turned abusive” two years ago when she got pregnant. I do that in quotes because this was always there–he just had a great mask on before this behavior started.

He refused to put her on any of his accounts. Took all of her money and put it in the family account, which her name was never on. The house is still in his name, not in her name. So now she's trying to get a divorce and using some of our resources to help her, and she can't get anywhere with the finances because of the lock that's on all of the accounts. And she's not really sure what her rights are with the house situation, because her name's not on the house. So financial abuse is a huge piece of this and something I'm super passionate about.

When I left my situation, I had a 525 credit score, and now I'm over 800. I had $100,000 in debt in my name. This is another thing that financial abusers do. They will put debt in your name instead of in their name, because then it's your credit that's trashed. They can go buy whatever they want in your name. And I had to pay that down. So coming into a marriage with $100,000 in debt, I then had to get attorneys and my boss at the time to help me basically renegotiate those terms. So, I paid about half of that. But then it was on my credit as judgments for several years. So, yeah, I mean, financial abuse is a huge piece of the abuse puzzle.

Laura Killingbeck:

What are the typical red flags for financial abuse? Or let's say there's a woman who doesn't necessarily think she's in an abusive relationship–what are the red flags that would show her that financial abuse is happening?

JoJo Dries:

First of all, if you don't think you're in a financially abusive situation, ask yourself a few questions: “When you go out to eat, or you go to the grocery store, and you come back, and you tell your partner, are you questioned? How much did you spend? Why did you have to buy that? How much did you spend at the restaurant? Did you pay for your friend that you went out with? Why did you have to go to such an expensive restaurant? Couldn't you have bought less groceries? Those are extras. Why do you need those?”

Things like that are huge red flags when it comes to finances. You, as a human being, should be an autonomous human being that is allowed to make financial decisions when you go to a store, a restaurant, buy gifts for your friends, buy gifts for your family. It doesn't matter if you've been in a 20-year marriage, a 20-year relationship, if you're married to a man or a woman, none of that should matter. You yourself are an individual and should be allowed to make financial decisions.

Is it healthy in a marriage, in a relationship, to talk to each other about finances? Yes, as long as it's on equal ground. So that's what I always tell people. We have all these financial gurus out there that say, “Don't make over $500 purchases without talking to your partner, because then there's something wrong with your relationship.” And I understand that. The question is, are you coming to the table equally? Does that partner also have to ask the same questions of you when they spend on the credit card or checkbook?

That's one thing. The other thing is: is your name on the account? We should all have equal rights to the account. If in your marriage or your relationship you decided “I'm going to keep JoJo Dries on her own bank accounts, and Paul dries on his own bank accounts, and we're not going to share that,” that's one thing. But if you have nothing to your name and everything is in your partner's name, that's where the problem lies.

Do you have the rights that they have? Are your names on all the accounts–house, title, et cetera? And do you have to ask permission before you spend the dollars? And if you do, does the partner also have to ask permission? It should all be equal on all levels.

Laura Killingbeck:

What do you wish the general public understood better about domestic violence?

JoJo Dries:

So, two things. And the first thing is, I want people to know that this isn't happening somewhere else. It's happening in your world. I would say that's one of the biggest things I want people to know. Somebody in your world right now is experiencing domestic violence. And I have no doubt about that. I could probably guarantee that 99.9% to everyone listening.

And the second thing I want people to know is sort of what we talked about in the beginning of this call, which is: it's not that easy to leave. And survivors need us. Sorry, this is…I get emotional. Survivors need us to be out there talking about this. Because it's not just a matter of “Why don't you just leave? Why didn't you just escape?” Well, why don't you tell them that you're there for them? And then they will escape, you know?

So, it's not easy. Our brains are wired differently. And we've been told something for decades that you can't just undo in a second. So, I would say those are my two main messages for people.

Oh, and one more thing. For survivors listening, my message to you is: people care. People want to serve. You're not alone. You are worthy, and you are ready, and they can knock you down, but then they can't knock you out. One of my favorite peloton instructors has that quote. Well, she's not with Peloton anymore, Kendall, but yeah. I love that quote.

Laura Killingbeck:

It is such a deep thing to be talking about, and I have so much respect for you for sharing your story in such a personal way over and over again. And I recognize how hard that is. Thank you.

Is there anything that you would like to see from me and the Choose the Bear Tour? Any ways of understanding the story, or things to include that you think are important?

JoJo Dries:

I feel like survivors like me, that have come to the other side and are thriving–we’ve created the life of our dreams. Survivors that are still in it need to be able to see that. There is so much light and love and success and dreams that can be fulfilled on the other side of it.

I was able to overcome so much, and the story isn't always just the pain. I have this beautiful family I created. I have a beautiful chosen family. I get to wake up every day and do what I love.

Is that pain still in there? Is it still a part of me? Of course, but look at where we are now. And I think so many of us that have gotten to the other side just want people to know: it doesn't always have to be so painful. If I could do it–with everything I had to overcome–so, can you. That’s always my message.

Tap to read more about this story in Laura’s words.